Discussion:
[gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Dan Fraser
2007-05-01 20:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Hi Committers,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Dan Fraser
2007-05-01 20:37:00 UTC
Permalink
What I meant was...

Hi gt-users,
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Hi Committers,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Dan Fraser
2007-05-01 20:44:45 UTC
Permalink
Adding gt-dev to the list. (sorry for the overlap.)


Hi Globus Developers & Users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Tianchao Li
2007-05-01 21:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Why not leverage the existing implementation from Axis2 (muse)?

Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Dan Fraser
Hi Committers,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the
Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final
version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation
model, this could increase both the support and implementation
complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion
on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine
the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put
together the attached document. Please help us understand if the
benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation
complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at
11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
Rachana Ananthakrishnan
2007-05-02 13:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

We did evaluate Muse, but there were some drawbacks such as requiring a
complete rewrite of existing services from GT, lack of support for WS
security (only https with no authorization) and use of SOAP 1.2 which
implies WS-I BP interoperability issues. Also, at this point the code base
has no automated tests and while we will track the project, we don't think
it is at a point where we can adopt it.

Are there any specific features of Muse (other than support for new
specification, which is being targeted for GT), that you are interested in
using ?

Thanks,
Rachana


_____

From: owner-gt-***@globus.org [mailto:owner-gt-***@globus.org] On Behalf
Of Tianchao Li
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:19 PM
To: Dan Fraser
Cc: gt-***@globus.org
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Why not leverage the existing implementation from Axis2 (muse)?

Best regards,
Tianchao Li

Dan Fraser wrote:

Hi Committers,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS
Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF
specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase
both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like
to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your
requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together
the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of
upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack
of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am
CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Tom Scavo
2007-05-03 13:18:15 UTC
Permalink
This article may be relevant:

http://www.xml.com/pub/a/2007/05/02/sure-reliable-web-services-with-apache.html

The article is non-technical, but it suggests what might be done with
Axis2 in conjunction with other apache projects. The integration work
being done at http://wso2.org/ is particularly impressive.

Tom
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
We did evaluate Muse, but there were some drawbacks such as requiring a
complete rewrite of existing services from GT, lack of support for WS
security (only https with no authorization) and use of SOAP 1.2 which
implies WS-I BP interoperability issues. Also, at this point the code base
has no automated tests and while we will track the project, we don't think
it is at a point where we can adopt it.
Are there any specific features of Muse (other than support for new
specification, which is being targeted for GT), that you are interested in
using ?
Thanks,
Rachana
________________________________
Of Tianchao Li
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:19 PM
To: Dan Fraser
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Why not leverage the existing implementation from Axis2 (muse)?
Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Hi Committers,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS
Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF
specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase
both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like
to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your
requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together
the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of
upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack
of backward compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am
CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
Tianchao Li
2007-05-03 14:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Using muse (and the underlying axis2) gives you all the benefit of the
platform, including dynamic service deployment, management UI, etc.
Except for the effort of having to move the existing services of GT, I
see no real problem with the adoption of muse. Those minor issues are
technically not big.
The simple question here is - which platform is going to have more
developers working around it and contributing to it - Globus Core or
Axis2? You might argue that there are many people from the Grid world
that are using Globus, but I bet that in the commercial part Axis2 is
definitely more interesting than Globus Core. And I am expecting faster
development of Muse (Axis2) than Globus Core. Why should we waste our
time on something which does not really belongs to Grid computing?
The point is, the early we decide to transit to muse (axis2), the more
benefit we can get from it.

Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Hi,
We did evaluate Muse, but there were some drawbacks such as requiring
a complete rewrite of existing services from GT, lack of support for
WS security (only https with no authorization) and use of SOAP 1.2
which implies WS-I BP interoperability issues. Also, at this point the
code base has no automated tests and while we will track the project,
we don't think it is at a point where we can adopt it.
Are there any specific features of Muse (other than support for new
specification, which is being targeted for GT), that you are
interested in using ?
Thanks,
Rachana
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*On Behalf Of *Tianchao Li
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:19 PM
*To:* Dan Fraser
*Subject:* Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Why not leverage the existing implementation from Axis2 (muse)?
Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Dan Fraser
Hi Committers,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update
the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the
final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the
implementation model, this could increase both the support and
implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have
some email discussion on this topic to understand what your
requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to
put together the attached document. Please help us understand if
the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased
support/implementation complexity and lack of backward
compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14
at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
Rachana Ananthakrishnan
2007-05-03 18:15:19 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

We agree that Muse has some advantages, but it is important for us is to
weigh the advantages vs the effort/costs. We support a number of production
system users and some of the key features I have listed below are strong
requirements.

For example, we require good security support which Muse lacks now. The hot
deploy feature you mention in your email is supported by Axis2, but not yet
at Muse layer. (http://marc.info/?l=muse-dev&m=112117580203511&w=2). The
fact that all of the code base has no testing infrastructure is a big
handicap.

What we have proposed is a specification upgrade that would have minimal
impact on our user community. Are you suggesting that, given new technology
on the horizon, such as Muse, a specification upgrade may not be needed at
this time?

Thanks,
Rachana
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Using muse (and the underlying axis2) gives you all the
benefit of the platform, including dynamic service
deployment, management UI, etc.
Except for the effort of having to move the existing services
of GT, I see no real problem with the adoption of muse. Those
minor issues are technically not big.
The simple question here is - which platform is going to have
more developers working around it and contributing to it -
Globus Core or Axis2? You might argue that there are many
people from the Grid world that are using Globus, but I bet
that in the commercial part Axis2 is definitely more
interesting than Globus Core. And I am expecting faster
development of Muse (Axis2) than Globus Core. Why should we
waste our time on something which does not really belongs to
Grid computing?
The point is, the early we decide to transit to muse (axis2),
the more benefit we can get from it.
Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Hi,
We did evaluate Muse, but there were some drawbacks such as
requiring
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
a complete rewrite of existing services from GT, lack of
support for
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
WS security (only https with no authorization) and use of SOAP 1.2
which implies WS-I BP interoperability issues. Also, at
this point the
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
code base has no automated tests and while we will track
the project,
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
we don't think it is at a point where we can adopt it.
Are there any specific features of Muse (other than support for new
specification, which is being targeted for GT), that you are
interested in using ?
Thanks,
Rachana
--------------------------------------------------------------
----------
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
*On Behalf Of *Tianchao Li
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:19 PM
*To:* Dan Fraser
*Subject:* Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Why not leverage the existing implementation from Axis2 (muse)?
Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Dan Fraser
Hi Committers,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need
to update
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Post by Dan Fraser
the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the
final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the
implementation model, this could increase both the support and
implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have
some email discussion on this topic to understand what your
requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to
put together the attached document. Please help us
understand if
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Post by Dan Fraser
the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased
support/implementation complexity and lack of backward
compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14
at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
Ujjwal Grover
2007-05-04 13:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi
Before I state my point, Id like to say that I have very little industry
experience through interactions in seminars and internships. Tianchao has
raised the right question - which platform is going to have more developers
working/comtributing to it, I personally feel that a lot of people are
working on the current Globus core. the need for RESTful architecture can be
best built using WS-Transfer which seems to be a very good idea and at
lesser effort. Same goes with security and namespacing.
Shifting to axis may (Im not sure) lead to faster development of services
etc but Im not sure how fast would the middleware develop then.

Sincerely
Ujjwal Grover
Grid Computing Lab
DA-IICT <http://www.daiict.ac.in>
India
Post by Tianchao Li
Using muse (and the underlying axis2) gives you all the benefit of the
platform, including dynamic service deployment, management UI, etc.
Except for the effort of having to move the existing services of GT, I
see no real problem with the adoption of muse. Those minor issues are
technically not big.
The simple question here is - which platform is going to have more
developers working around it and contributing to it - Globus Core or
Axis2? You might argue that there are many people from the Grid world
that are using Globus, but I bet that in the commercial part Axis2 is
definitely more interesting than Globus Core. And I am expecting faster
development of Muse (Axis2) than Globus Core. Why should we waste our
time on something which does not really belongs to Grid computing?
The point is, the early we decide to transit to muse (axis2), the more
benefit we can get from it.
Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Hi,
We did evaluate Muse, but there were some drawbacks such as requiring
a complete rewrite of existing services from GT, lack of support for
WS security (only https with no authorization) and use of SOAP 1.2
which implies WS-I BP interoperability issues. Also, at this point the
code base has no automated tests and while we will track the project,
we don't think it is at a point where we can adopt it.
Are there any specific features of Muse (other than support for new
specification, which is being targeted for GT), that you are
interested in using ?
Thanks,
Rachana
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
*On Behalf Of *Tianchao Li
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 01, 2007 4:19 PM
*To:* Dan Fraser
*Subject:* Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Why not leverage the existing implementation from Axis2 (muse)?
Best regards,
Tianchao Li
Post by Dan Fraser
Hi Committers,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update
the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the
final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the
implementation model, this could increase both the support and
implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have
some email discussion on this topic to understand what your
requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to
put together the attached document. Please help us understand if
the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased
support/implementation complexity and lack of backward
compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14
at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
--
foo()
{
bar()
}
Ratering, Ralf
2007-05-04 07:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan,

we are developing the Grid Programming Environment (GPE) as an Open
Source project (http://gpe4gtk.sourceforge.net).
Our goal is to provide graphical user interfaces and programming tools
for Grid end users and developers, independent of the underlying Grid
Middleware. Therefore we have defined a programming API and a set of
so-called "atomic services" that manage jobs, files and (virtual)
machines on a Grid system.
Currently we have implementations of the atomic services for GT4 and for
UNICORE6.

A major problem that we have to struggle with is the difference in the
WSRF/WSN specification versions since UNICORE is using the final
versions. So right now we have to provide two different API
implementations and client distributions. Synchronizing the WSRF/WSN
specs between GT4 and UNICORE would allow us to use the same clients for
both server-side implementations, which is actually what we assumed
would happen some day.

The second issue is, that we would like to switch to a modern SOAP
framework, like Axis2, XFire or Jax-WS. Last time I looked at the
Axis2-based Muse, the implementation looked quite similar to GT4,
although security is missing of course. So migrating from GT4-core to
Muse seems to require the least modifications, but I may be wrong
there....

And finally there's the WS-RT family of management standards coming up,
that let's people assume the implementation will change again some day.

As a summary, we'd be happy if GT4 only upgrades the WSRF/WSN specs for
now. But we need a concrete roadmap that allows us to plan our GPE
development for GT. One option could be to implement GT5 on top of Muse
and then in the long term move towards WS-RT together with the Muse
project, or?

Regards,
Ralf
--
Best Regards

Ralf Ratering
Intel
Software & Solutions Group
Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a, 50321 Bruehl, Germany
Tel: +49 2232 209049, Fax: +49 2232 209029
----
Intel GmbH, Dornacher Strasse 1, 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer
Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456
Ust.-IdNr./VAT Registration No.: DE129385895
Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052


________________________________

From: owner-gt-***@globus.org [mailto:owner-gt-***@globus.org]
On Behalf Of Dan Fraser
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2007 22:27
To: gt-***@globus.org
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Hi Committers,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update
the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final
version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation
model, this could increase both the support and implementation
complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion
on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the
best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to
put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the
benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation
complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14
at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Dan Fraser
2007-05-04 15:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ralf,

Thank you for describing your GPE requirements. A "modern SOAP framework" does seem like the right direction to be moving, and we are working on just such a roadmap. Right now the number of unknowns is high with any of these new frameworks, and we want to move carefully based on our past experiences with GT2 and GT3. We are also interested in eventually transitioning to JAX-WS for support of REST/WS-RT. One strategy is for us to actively contribute to one (or more) of the framework teams and thereby encourage features (and the stability) that we need in preparing for a transition.

It sounds like a step-by-step transition to eventually target WS-RT could be helpful. Would this meet your requirements?

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Ratering, Ralf
To: Dan Fraser ; gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 2:52 AM
Subject: RE: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Hi Dan,

we are developing the Grid Programming Environment (GPE) as an Open Source project (http://gpe4gtk.sourceforge.net).
Our goal is to provide graphical user interfaces and programming tools for Grid end users and developers, independent of the underlying Grid Middleware. Therefore we have defined a programming API and a set of so-called "atomic services" that manage jobs, files and (virtual) machines on a Grid system.
Currently we have implementations of the atomic services for GT4 and for UNICORE6.

A major problem that we have to struggle with is the difference in the WSRF/WSN specification versions since UNICORE is using the final versions. So right now we have to provide two different API implementations and client distributions. Synchronizing the WSRF/WSN specs between GT4 and UNICORE would allow us to use the same clients for both server-side implementations, which is actually what we assumed would happen some day.

The second issue is, that we would like to switch to a modern SOAP framework, like Axis2, XFire or Jax-WS. Last time I looked at the Axis2-based Muse, the implementation looked quite similar to GT4, although security is missing of course. So migrating from GT4-core to Muse seems to require the least modifications, but I may be wrong there....

And finally there's the WS-RT family of management standards coming up, that let's people assume the implementation will change again some day.

As a summary, we'd be happy if GT4 only upgrades the WSRF/WSN specs for now. But we need a concrete roadmap that allows us to plan our GPE development for GT. One option could be to implement GT5 on top of Muse and then in the long term move towards WS-RT together with the Muse project, or?

Regards,
Ralf
--
Best Regards

Ralf Ratering
Intel
Software & Solutions Group
Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a, 50321 Bruehl, Germany
Tel: +49 2232 209049, Fax: +49 2232 209029
----
Intel GmbH, Dornacher Strasse 1, 85622 Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes Schwaderer
Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456
Ust.-IdNr./VAT Registration No.: DE129385895
Citibank Frankfurt (BLZ 502 109 00) 600119052




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: owner-gt-***@globus.org [mailto:owner-gt-***@globus.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fraser
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2007 22:27
To: gt-***@globus.org
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Hi Committers,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Christoph Ludwig
2007-05-05 09:48:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan,

On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 08:52:29AM +0100, Ratering, Ralf wrote:
[...]
Post by Ratering, Ralf
As a summary, we'd be happy if GT4 only upgrades the WSRF/WSN specs for
now. But we need a concrete roadmap that allows us to plan our GPE
development for GT.
[...]

I second that.

In our project, we need to communicate with third party web services as well
that were almost never developed with GT tools. So interoperability is a
concern for us.

It would be great if there were a) a clear roadmap which specifications GT
will support and b) documentation which WS frameworks are interoperable with
GT.

Regards

Christoph
--
FH Worms - University of Applied Sciences
Fachbereich Informatik / Telekommunikation
Erenburgerstr. 19, 67549 Worms, Germany
Ratering, Ralf
2007-05-07 15:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan,

I know it's tough to nail down a long-term roadmap in this area.
However, a plan for a step-to-step transition would be very helpful for
us.
Please let us know if we can help somehow.

Ralf


________________________________

From: Dan Fraser [mailto:***@mcs.anl.gov]
Sent: Freitag, 4. Mai 2007 17:52
To: Ratering, Ralf; gt-***@globus.org
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Hi Ralf,

Thank you for describing your GPE requirements. A "modern SOAP
framework" does seem like the right direction to be moving, and we are
working on just such a roadmap. Right now the number of unknowns is high
with any of these new frameworks, and we want to move carefully based on
our past experiences with GT2 and GT3. We are also interested in
eventually transitioning to JAX-WS for support of REST/WS-RT. One
strategy is for us to actively contribute to one (or more) of the
framework teams and thereby encourage features (and the stability) that
we need in preparing for a transition.

It sounds like a step-by-step transition to eventually target
WS-RT could be helpful. Would this meet your requirements?

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: Ratering, Ralf <mailto:***@intel.com>
To: Dan Fraser <mailto:***@mcs.anl.gov> ;
gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 2:52 AM
Subject: RE: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup

Hi Dan,

we are developing the Grid Programming Environment (GPE)
as an Open Source project (http://gpe4gtk.sourceforge.net).
Our goal is to provide graphical user interfaces and
programming tools for Grid end users and developers, independent of the
underlying Grid Middleware. Therefore we have defined a programming API
and a set of so-called "atomic services" that manage jobs, files and
(virtual) machines on a Grid system.
Currently we have implementations of the atomic services
for GT4 and for UNICORE6.

A major problem that we have to struggle with is the
difference in the WSRF/WSN specification versions since UNICORE is using
the final versions. So right now we have to provide two different API
implementations and client distributions. Synchronizing the WSRF/WSN
specs between GT4 and UNICORE would allow us to use the same clients for
both server-side implementations, which is actually what we assumed
would happen some day.

The second issue is, that we would like to switch to a
modern SOAP framework, like Axis2, XFire or Jax-WS. Last time I looked
at the Axis2-based Muse, the implementation looked quite similar to GT4,
although security is missing of course. So migrating from GT4-core to
Muse seems to require the least modifications, but I may be wrong
there....

And finally there's the WS-RT family of management
standards coming up, that let's people assume the implementation will
change again some day.

As a summary, we'd be happy if GT4 only upgrades the
WSRF/WSN specs for now. But we need a concrete roadmap that allows us to
plan our GPE development for GT. One option could be to implement GT5 on
top of Muse and then in the long term move towards WS-RT together with
the Muse project, or?

Regards,
Ralf
--
Best Regards

Ralf Ratering
Intel
Software & Solutions Group
Hermuelheimer Strasse 8a, 50321 Bruehl, Germany
Tel: +49 2232 209049, Fax: +49 2232 209029
----
Intel GmbH, Dornacher Strasse 1, 85622
Feldkirchen/Muenchen Germany
Sitz der Gesellschaft: Feldkirchen bei Muenchen
Geschaeftsfuehrer: Douglas Lusk, Peter Gleissner, Hannes
Schwaderer
Registergericht: Muenchen HRB 47456
Ust.-IdNr./VAT Registration No.: DE129385895
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________________________________

From: owner-gt-***@globus.org
[mailto:owner-gt-***@globus.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fraser
Sent: Dienstag, 1. Mai 2007 22:27
To: gt-***@globus.org
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Hi Committers,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether
we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform
to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the
implementation model, this could increase both the support and
implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some
email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are
and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been
diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us
understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased
support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for
our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting
on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Dan Fraser
2007-05-09 23:22:19 UTC
Permalink
Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The coordinates are:

11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738

We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!

Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup


Hi GT-users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Christoph Ludwig
2007-05-11 06:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan,
Post by Dan Fraser
Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to
be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we
certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning
a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The
[...]

unfortunately, I won't be able to join the confcall. But we are very
interested to learn about your plans w.r.t Axis 2, the specifications you
intend to implement, and more generally, the interoperability with other WS
engines. Will there be any minutes of this confcall made available?

Best regards

Christoph
Post by Dan Fraser
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup
Hi GT-users,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
--
FH Worms - University of Applied Sciences
Fachbereich Informatik / Telekommunikation
Erenburgerstr. 19, 67549 Worms, Germany
Dan Fraser
2007-05-14 13:49:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi GT-users,

Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger community.

Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The coordinates are:

11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738

We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!

Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup


Hi GT-users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Steve Tuecke
2007-05-14 15:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Unfortunately I won't be able to make this call. But I'll toss a few
thoughts into the fray...

I don't know that I see compelling functionality reasons to be move
to the final WSRF specifications. So I think any moves, and the
details of such moves, should be motivated by compatibility and
interoperability, both present and future. It sounds like the big
issue from that perspective is WS-Addressing -- I think it makes
sense to move to the final version that everyone else is implementing.

Of course, in moving to WS-Addressing, we're going to break
compatibility. So then the question is what else should we consider
changing at the same time, in order to improve our interoperability
situation and/or position ourselves better for the future? Moving
the final WSRF specs probably makes sense from this perspective.

My bigger concern, though, is the whole WSRF vs WS-Man morass.
Recall that last August IBM, HP, Intel, Microsoft and others
reconciled on a converged set of specifications (e.g. WS-
ResourceTransfer, etc). Now, I am NOT advocating that we immediately
move to that set of specifications. I fully expect that these specs
are going to change a few more times before they finally settle down,
and I don't think it makes sense to chase a moving target. However,
I also believe we are going to need to support these new specs at
some point down the road. So I think a key question is what can we
do to position ourselves so that we incrementally add support for WS-
Transfer, WS-ResourceTransfer, WS-Eventing, WS-EventNotification,
etc. in the future, without breaking backward compatibility again?

One definite concern is WS-BaseFaults. Last fall in the OSGF BES HPC
profile discussion, Microsoft stated that they won't use WS-
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
-------------------------
Main goal of the spec is to introduce base type for detail element
of the fault
1) Not clear what value base fault type provides over SOAP
1.2 Fault , except for d)
i. Originator EPR is always known via Addressing facilities.
ii. Mix in of infrastructure details into application
message parts: application may not know what it’s EPR is.
i. Limited duplicate of SOAP1.2 fault codes and sub-codes.
Uri associated with fault should be represented by the wsa:Action
i. duplicates SOAP 1.2 Fault reason
i. this is the only valuable piece IMHO – common
representation of nested exceptions.
ii. This can be provided by using open content model for
SOAP1.2 Fault detail .
2) Child elements of Base fault are not namespace qualified –
this leads to known threats of having unqualified elements. Does
not map to DataContract.
3) Should not require name=’fault’ on the message – there is
no need for this and this blocks existing WSDL-generators.
4) Folks need to define Action uris for individual fault
messages, since Addressing is assumed to be used.
Our WSDLs generated by default for Faults will not adhere to 2 and 3.
-----------------------------
Right or wrong, there is resistance to WS-BaseFaults, and they are
not likely to end up in whatever converged WSRF/WS-Man spec
eventually makes it into the world. So perhaps we should stop using
WS-BaseFaults now for all of our own operations in Globus, and only
continue to use them for the WSRF operations that require it. There
is alternative pattern for passing faults that is used in the various
Microsoft/IBM WS-* specs, so perhaps we should move to that pattern
for the non-WSRF operations in services like WS-GRAM, RFT, etc. Can
we make changes to the Java and C WS Core runtimes to make it easy to
program to either pattern?

More generally, what if somebody wants to write a client to, for
example, WS-GRAM using some other WS client tooling, and does not
(for whatever reason) want to use any of the WSRF operations
(particularly WSRP query and WSN subscribe). Is there a straight-
forward thing we can do to make this straight-forward, perhaps with
reduced functionality? Removing the use of WS-BaseFault in WS-GRAM
operations would be one step. Another might be to make it easy to
add individual RP get operations, and maybe support the WS-Transfer
full RP document get. This would allow a client that wants to use
WSRF to get full functionality vis WSRP query, WSN subscriptions,
etc. But a client that does not want to use WSRF can get reduced
functionality by using the individual getters, and full-document
get. And then we should be able to add all the other WS-Man specs as
additional operations, without breaking backward compatibility.

I know I'm doing some hand waving here, and would be happy to talk
about this more in person or on a call. Unfortunately I just can't
make this morning's call.

-Steve
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Hi GT-users,
Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the
proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short
presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion
concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger
community.
Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There
seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded
specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the
community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further
11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738
We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup
Hi GT-users,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update
the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final
version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation
model, this could increase both the support and implementation
complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email
discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are
and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put
together the attached document. Please help us understand if the
benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/
implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for
our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at
11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
Ian Foster
2007-05-14 15:08:46 UTC
Permalink
I agree that the issue of interoperability is critical--we need to make
sure that people can call our services from MS tools, in particular.
That is a key concern that I have heard expressed by our users.

I also agree with the other issues mentioned below.

Ian.
Post by Steve Tuecke
Unfortunately I won't be able to make this call. But I'll toss a few
thoughts into the fray...
I don't know that I see compelling functionality reasons to be move to
the final WSRF specifications. So I think any moves, and the details
of such moves, should be motivated by compatibility and
interoperability, both present and future. It sounds like the big
issue from that perspective is WS-Addressing -- I think it makes sense
to move to the final version that everyone else is implementing.
Of course, in moving to WS-Addressing, we're going to break
compatibility. So then the question is what else should we consider
changing at the same time, in order to improve our interoperability
situation and/or position ourselves better for the future? Moving the
final WSRF specs probably makes sense from this perspective.
My bigger concern, though, is the whole WSRF vs WS-Man morass. Recall
that last August IBM, HP, Intel, Microsoft and others reconciled on a
converged set of specifications (e.g. WS-ResourceTransfer, etc). Now,
I am NOT advocating that we immediately move to that set of
specifications. I fully expect that these specs are going to change a
few more times before they finally settle down, and I don't think it
makes sense to chase a moving target. However, I also believe we are
going to need to support these new specs at some point down the road.
So I think a key question is what can we do to position ourselves so
that we incrementally add support for WS-Transfer,
WS-ResourceTransfer, WS-Eventing, WS-EventNotification, etc. in the
future, without breaking backward compatibility again?
One definite concern is WS-BaseFaults. Last fall in the OSGF BES HPC
profile discussion, Microsoft stated that they won't use
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
-------------------------
Main goal of the spec is to introduce base type for detail element of
the fault
1) Not clear what value base fault type provides over SOAP 1.2
Fault , except for d)
i. Originator EPR is always known via Addressing
facilities.
ii. Mix in of infrastructure details into application
message parts: application may not know what it’s EPR is.
i. Limited duplicate of SOAP1.2 fault codes and
sub-codes. Uri associated with fault should be represented by the
wsa:Action
i. duplicates SOAP 1.2 Fault reason
i. this is the only valuable piece IMHO – common
representation of nested exceptions.
ii. This can be provided by using open content model for
SOAP1.2 Fault detail .
2) Child elements of Base fault are not namespace qualified –
this leads to known threats of having unqualified elements. Does not
map to DataContract.
3) Should not require name=’fault’ on the message – there is no
need for this and this blocks existing WSDL-generators.
4) Folks need to define Action uris for individual fault
messages, since Addressing is assumed to be used.
Our WSDLs generated by default for Faults will not adhere to 2 and 3.
-----------------------------
Right or wrong, there is resistance to WS-BaseFaults, and they are not
likely to end up in whatever converged WSRF/WS-Man spec eventually
makes it into the world. So perhaps we should stop using
WS-BaseFaults now for all of our own operations in Globus, and only
continue to use them for the WSRF operations that require it. There
is alternative pattern for passing faults that is used in the various
Microsoft/IBM WS-* specs, so perhaps we should move to that pattern
for the non-WSRF operations in services like WS-GRAM, RFT, etc. Can
we make changes to the Java and C WS Core runtimes to make it easy to
program to either pattern?
More generally, what if somebody wants to write a client to, for
example, WS-GRAM using some other WS client tooling, and does not (for
whatever reason) want to use any of the WSRF operations (particularly
WSRP query and WSN subscribe). Is there a straight-forward thing we
can do to make this straight-forward, perhaps with reduced
functionality? Removing the use of WS-BaseFault in WS-GRAM operations
would be one step. Another might be to make it easy to add individual
RP get operations, and maybe support the WS-Transfer full RP document
get. This would allow a client that wants to use WSRF to get full
functionality vis WSRP query, WSN subscriptions, etc. But a client
that does not want to use WSRF can get reduced functionality by using
the individual getters, and full-document get. And then we should be
able to add all the other WS-Man specs as additional operations,
without breaking backward compatibility.
I know I'm doing some hand waving here, and would be happy to talk
about this more in person or on a call. Unfortunately I just can't
make this morning's call.
-Steve
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Hi GT-users,
Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed
core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the
Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements,
desires, and thoughts from the larger community.
Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There
seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded
specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the
community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further
11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738
We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup
Hi GT-users,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the
Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final
version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation
model, this could increase both the support and implementation
complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email
discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and
determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put
together the attached document. Please help us understand if the
benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation
complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at
11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
--
Ian Foster, Director, Computation Institute
Argonne National Laboratory & University of Chicago
Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
Tel: +1 630 252 4619. Web: www.ci.uchicago.edu.
Globus Alliance: www.globus.org.
Dan Fraser
2007-05-14 15:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Here are the slides to kick-off the discussion on today's call. Jen, can you please forward these to the Committers mailing list as well?

Talk soon,

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Hi GT-users,

Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger community.

Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The coordinates are:

11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738

We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!

Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup


Hi GT-users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Dan Fraser
2007-05-14 15:47:53 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, wrong slides, here are the core slides...

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: Dan Fraser ; gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Here are the slides to kick-off the discussion on today's call. Jen, can you please forward these to the Committers mailing list as well?

Talk soon,

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Hi GT-users,

Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger community.

Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The coordinates are:

11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738

We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!

Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup


Hi GT-users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Christoph Ludwig
2007-05-14 17:12:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dan,
Post by Dan Fraser
Sorry, wrong slides, here are the core slides...
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours
Here are the slides to kick-off the discussion on today's call. Jen, can you please forward these to the Committers mailing list as well?
as I already wrote, I unfortunately cannot join the confcall. But let me
answer the questions at the end of your slides:

We (the German TextGrid) do not rely on any functionality that was added in
the final WS-specs, but we need to interoperate with other implementations,
e.g., Axis2. We'd prefer if we could host services implementing both the draft
and the final specs in the same container, but it won't be a show stopper for
us.

Regards

Christoph
Post by Dan Fraser
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours
Hi GT-users,
Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger community.
Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738
We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup
Hi GT-users,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
--
FH Worms - University of Applied Sciences
Fachbereich Informatik / Telekommunikation
Erenburgerstr. 19, 67549 Worms, Germany
Dan Fraser
2007-05-14 20:03:56 UTC
Permalink
Hi Everyone,

The consensus on the call was largely as follows:

-The final spec upgrade would be helpful, largely because of the WS-Addressing component, and also for grid interoperability, especially since UNICORE supports this.
-A GT Roadmap is needed that will provide both a timeline with proposed spec upgrades, and dates for deprecations.
-There was minimal support for trying to maintain the dual-universe model for backward compatibility. Developers would not likely be willing to write code to support this. The ability to run multiple containers with different specs is sufficient. Major releases should make the important spec upgrades with no backward compatibility. It was noted that the Globus model is to support two major releases at any given time.
-The need for Axis 2/Muse is intriguing and should be investigated, but the concerns that it is not ready yet for prime time are important. Globus will evaluate further.
-Additional specs to be considered on a case by case basis. It was noted that there are no hard and fast rules as to when to upgrade, but at some point, important specs seem to gather a critical mass of adopters.

The Globus team appreciates everyone's time on this effort. Thank you,

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: Dan Fraser ; gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Sorry, wrong slides, here are the core slides...

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: Dan Fraser ; gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Here are the slides to kick-off the discussion on today's call. Jen, can you please forward these to the Committers mailing list as well?

Talk soon,

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Hi GT-users,

Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger community.

Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The coordinates are:

11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738

We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!

Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup


Hi GT-users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan
Gokop Goteng
2007-05-15 11:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Dear All,

Any idea on the error:

[***@isxp1313c ~]$ counter-client -s https://isxp1313c.sims.cranfield.ac.uk:8443/wsrf/services/CounterService
Error: ; nested exception is:
java.net.SocketException: Connection reset

Regards
Gokop


Dan Fraser <***@mcs.anl.gov> wrote: Hi Everyone,

The consensus on the call was largely as follows:

-The final spec upgrade would be helpful, largely because of the WS-Addressing component, and also for grid interoperability, especially since UNICORE supports this.
-A GT Roadmap is needed that will provide both a timeline with proposed spec upgrades, and dates for deprecations.
-There was minimal support for trying to maintain the dual-universe model for backward compatibility. Developers would not likely be willing to write code to support this. The ability to run multiple containers with different specs is sufficient. Major releases should make the important spec upgrades with no backward compatibility. It was noted that the Globus model is to support two major releases at any given time.
-The need for Axis 2/Muse is intriguing and should be investigated, but the concerns that it is not ready yet for prime time are important. Globus will evaluate further.
-Additional specs to be considered on a case by case basis. It was noted that there are no hard and fast rules as to when to upgrade, but at some point, important specs seem to gather a critical mass of adopters.

The Globus team appreciates everyone's time on this effort. Thank you,

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: Dan Fraser ; gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Sorry, wrong slides, here are the core slides...

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: Dan Fraser ; gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Here are the slides to kick-off the discussion on today's call. Jen, can you please forward these to the Committers mailing list as well?

Talk soon,

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: [gt-user] Reminder, Core Options call in 2 hours


Hi GT-users,

Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements, desires, and thoughts from the larger community.

Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!

Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup


Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further and are inviting you to attend. The coordinates are:

11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738

We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!

Dan


----- Original Message ----- From: Dan Fraser
To: gt-***@globus.org
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup



Hi GT-users,

The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation model, this could increase both the support and implementation complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and determine the best course to pursue.

Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put together the attached document. Please help us understand if the benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.

I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at 11:00am CT to discuss this further.

Thank you,

Dan



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Gokop Goteng
2007-05-20 20:55:49 UTC
Permalink
Dear All,

I have configured RFT and my postmaster appeared like this:

[***@isxp1313c ~]# cat /opt/pgsql/data/postmaster.opts
/usr/bin/postmaster '-i' '-D' '/opt/pgsql/data'


and my pg_hba.conf is:

[***@isxp1313c ~]# grep rftDatabase /opt/pgsql/data/pg_hba.conf
host rftDatabase "globus" "138.250.104.227" 255.255.255.255 md5

I still got this error:

[***@isxp1313c ~]# head /usr/local/globus-4.0.4/var/container.log
2007-05-20 21:34:43,612 ERROR service.ReliableFileTransferImpl [main,<init>:69] Unable to setup database driver with pooling.Connection refused. Check that the hostname and port are correct and that the postmaster is accepting TCP/IP connections.
2007-05-20 21:34:44,091 WARN service.ReliableFileTransferHome [main,initialize:97] All RFT requests will fail and all GRAM jobs that require file staging will fail.Connection refused. Check that the hostname and port are correct and that the postmaster is accepting TCP/IP connections.
Starting SOAP server at: https://138.250.104.227:8443/wsrf/services/
With the following services:

[1]: https://138.250.104.227:8443/wsrf/services/AdminService
[2]: https://138.250.104.227:8443/wsrf/services/AuthzCalloutTestService
[3]: https://138.250.104.227:8443/wsrf/services/CASService
[4]: https://138.250.104.227:8443/wsrf/services/ContainerRegistryEntryService
[5]: https://138.250.104.227:8443/wsrf/services/ContainerRegistryService
[***@isxp1313c ~]#


I created posmaster.conf and added POSTMASTER_OPTIONS="-i" to /opt/pgsql/postmaster.conf as below:

[***@isxp1313c ~]# grep POSTMASTER /opt/pgsql/postmaster.conf
POSTMASTER_OPTIONS="-i"

I still got the same error. I am stucked for over week doing the same thing and checking the RFT Admin guide and google.

Help!

Regards
Gokop














Ian Foster <***@mcs.anl.gov> wrote: I agree that the issue of interoperability is critical--we need to make
sure that people can call our services from MS tools, in particular.
That is a key concern that I have heard expressed by our users.

I also agree with the other issues mentioned below.

Ian.
Post by Steve Tuecke
Unfortunately I won't be able to make this call. But I'll toss a few
thoughts into the fray...
I don't know that I see compelling functionality reasons to be move to
the final WSRF specifications. So I think any moves, and the details
of such moves, should be motivated by compatibility and
interoperability, both present and future. It sounds like the big
issue from that perspective is WS-Addressing -- I think it makes sense
to move to the final version that everyone else is implementing.
Of course, in moving to WS-Addressing, we're going to break
compatibility. So then the question is what else should we consider
changing at the same time, in order to improve our interoperability
situation and/or position ourselves better for the future? Moving the
final WSRF specs probably makes sense from this perspective.
My bigger concern, though, is the whole WSRF vs WS-Man morass. Recall
that last August IBM, HP, Intel, Microsoft and others reconciled on a
converged set of specifications (e.g. WS-ResourceTransfer, etc). Now,
I am NOT advocating that we immediately move to that set of
specifications. I fully expect that these specs are going to change a
few more times before they finally settle down, and I don't think it
makes sense to chase a moving target. However, I also believe we are
going to need to support these new specs at some point down the road.
So I think a key question is what can we do to position ourselves so
that we incrementally add support for WS-Transfer,
WS-ResourceTransfer, WS-Eventing, WS-EventNotification, etc. in the
future, without breaking backward compatibility again?
One definite concern is WS-BaseFaults. Last fall in the OSGF BES HPC
profile discussion, Microsoft stated that they won't use
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
-------------------------
Main goal of the spec is to introduce base type for detail element of
the fault
1) Not clear what value base fault type provides over SOAP 1.2
Fault , except for d)
i. Originator EPR is always known via Addressing
facilities.
ii. Mix in of infrastructure details into application
message parts: application may not know what it’s EPR is.
i. Limited duplicate of SOAP1.2 fault codes and
sub-codes. Uri associated with fault should be represented by the
wsa:Action
i. duplicates SOAP 1.2 Fault reason
i. this is the only valuable piece IMHO – common
representation of nested exceptions.
ii. This can be provided by using open content model for
SOAP1.2 Fault detail .
2) Child elements of Base fault are not namespace qualified –
this leads to known threats of having unqualified elements. Does not
map to DataContract.
3) Should not require name=’fault’ on the message – there is no
need for this and this blocks existing WSDL-generators.
4) Folks need to define Action uris for individual fault
messages, since Addressing is assumed to be used.
Our WSDLs generated by default for Faults will not adhere to 2 and 3.
-----------------------------
Right or wrong, there is resistance to WS-BaseFaults, and they are not
likely to end up in whatever converged WSRF/WS-Man spec eventually
makes it into the world. So perhaps we should stop using
WS-BaseFaults now for all of our own operations in Globus, and only
continue to use them for the WSRF operations that require it. There
is alternative pattern for passing faults that is used in the various
Microsoft/IBM WS-* specs, so perhaps we should move to that pattern
for the non-WSRF operations in services like WS-GRAM, RFT, etc. Can
we make changes to the Java and C WS Core runtimes to make it easy to
program to either pattern?
More generally, what if somebody wants to write a client to, for
example, WS-GRAM using some other WS client tooling, and does not (for
whatever reason) want to use any of the WSRF operations (particularly
WSRP query and WSN subscribe). Is there a straight-forward thing we
can do to make this straight-forward, perhaps with reduced
functionality? Removing the use of WS-BaseFault in WS-GRAM operations
would be one step. Another might be to make it easy to add individual
RP get operations, and maybe support the WS-Transfer full RP document
get. This would allow a client that wants to use WSRF to get full
functionality vis WSRP query, WSN subscriptions, etc. But a client
that does not want to use WSRF can get reduced functionality by using
the individual getters, and full-document get. And then we should be
able to add all the other WS-Man specs as additional operations,
without breaking backward compatibility.
I know I'm doing some hand waving here, and would be happy to talk
about this more in person or on a call. Unfortunately I just can't
make this morning's call.
-Steve
Post by Rachana Ananthakrishnan
Hi GT-users,
Just a reminder that we will be having a call to discuss the proposed
core technology upgrade. There will be a short presentation from the
Core Tiger team followed by discussion concerning requirements,
desires, and thoughts from the larger community.
Please join us, your input is crucial to the future of GT!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2007 6:22 PM
Subject: [gt-user] Fw: Core options writeup
Thank you for your responses to the Core technologies so far. There
seems to be a lot of interest in Axis 2, as well as the upgraded
specs, and we certainly are interested in hearing more from the
community. We are planning a call on Monday to discuss this further
11am chicago time, May 14
1-712-580-8020
Participant Access Code 26738
We look forward to hearing from you on Monday!
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Fraser
Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:27 PM
Subject: Fw: Core options writeup
Hi GT-users,
The CDIGS team is currently evaluating whether we need to update the
Java WS Core and C WS Core at this time to conform to the final
version of the WSRF specifications. Depending on the implementation
model, this could increase both the support and implementation
complexity of the toolkit. We would like to have some email
discussion on this topic to understand what your requirements are and
determine the best course to pursue.
Joe, Rachana, Charles, and Ravi have been diligently working to put
together the attached document. Please help us understand if the
benefits of upgrading are worth the increased support/implementation
complexity and lack of backward compatability for our user community.
I would also like to propose a concall meeting on Monday May 14 at
11:00am CT to discuss this further.
Thank you,
Dan
--
Ian Foster, Director, Computation Institute
Argonne National Laboratory & University of Chicago
Argonne: MCS/221, 9700 S. Cass Ave, Argonne, IL 60439
Chicago: Rm 405, 5640 S. Ellis Ave, Chicago, IL 60637
Tel: +1 630 252 4619. Web: www.ci.uchicago.edu.
Globus Alliance: www.globus.org.




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